Det var bare ut fra at jeg ba chatgpt regne på hvordan et alternativ med batteridrift kunne se ut. Jeg tror ikke Torghatten har gjort noe forsøk på å komme ut av avtalen om hydrogendrift (ennå). Mest sannsynlig blir disse fergene fullført etter planene, og så blir de etter mislykket prøvedrift utstyrt med tilsvarende batteripakke som "Hinnøy" og satt inn på mindre krevende ruter.Hvor kommer det egentlig fra at det skal være "roll on" batteripakker på disse båtene og at disse skal byttes under liggetida?
Jeg ser pendelfergen "Tranøy" går ruten nå, men det er gjerne mindre utfordrende på denne årstiden.?Og et pendelfergeskrog er vel et meget merkelig valg på det åpne havstykket i ytre Vestfjorden mht. sjøegenskaper.
Likevel driver skottene tungvint og kostbart med mini-danskebåter som går lange strekninger langs land der kryssingen kunne vært gjort mye kortere.Apropo LPG. Skottene har fått ferdig "Glen Sannox" , som de bestilte i 2015, og søsterskipet "Glen Rosa" kommer neste år. De var litt fremtidsrettet for 10 år siden, med dual-fuel LPG og diesel. Men nå bygges jo fergene i Norge om fra LPG. Nå har også skottene riktignok begynt å bestille ferger i Tyrkia, og"Isle og Islay" blir levert i løpet av året. Det er en batteri/diesel hybrid med Voith-Schneider propeller, og en ganske avansert rampeløsning for store tidevannsforskjeller.
I have NOT recommended High-Speed-Ferries for the ferry-routes Bodö-Lofoten and Bognes-Lödingen. Could be a problem with high waves in winter-storms also.It is not sustainable to run high-speed car ferry services in rural Norway, these are subsidized crossings already costing the tax-payers a lotta money.
It is wholly different from the densely populated Denmark where the crossings you mentioned are more or less self-sustainable and generate quite the activity to the near-laying communities.
Det er et par ting du må forstå når du lager dine resonnementer.I have NOT recommended High-Speed-Ferries for the ferry-routes Bodö-Lofoten and Bognes-Lödingen. Could be a problem with high waves in winter-storms also.
But significant faster ferries than the slowly actually ferries with ca. 13-16 knots only.
So - if now a complete new-ferry-generation is arriving - it would be normal also to upgrade the speed for to get shorter travel-times.
Not 30, 35 or 40 knots - but 20, 21, 22, 23, 24 or 25 knots makes a lot of sense and would be a significant better situation for all people in the region and all customer-groups in future than today.
Especially if 2 little bigger and little bit faster ferries can offer more departures and capacities per day than 3 smaller and slower ferries as today - what means 3 x the crew paid for longer working-times, 3 x ship-maintenance and other costs.
And sure you can compare some Norwegian routes with some Danish routes also.
Let´s look to Alslinjen f.ex. - up to today a very basic service with slowly smaller ferries from last century (Frigg Sydfyn / Fynshav),
Service-speed 12 knots, travel-time 45min, 50 cars / 90 cars, 2 hours-frequency, ticket-price for car incl. pax is mostly 139 DKK.
And with the new ferry Nerthus it will be 2026
Service-speed 16-17,5 knots, travel-time circa 30min (maybe 35min), 188 cars, minimum 90min frequency, ticket-price will go down to 99 DKK (maybe also 79 DKK in winter, operation-costs goes massive down).
And furthermore this new ferry offers also MUCH more space onboard, much bigger restaurant-cafe etc. - so also higher comfort onboard for the passengers.
So with a new ferry in Denmark EVERYTHING will be really better for the customers on this ferry-route !
And the same it was before also on Bornholmslinjen, Molslinjen, Samsölinjen etc. after arrival from new ferries and / or operation-change to Molslinjen-group.
But what will be really better in Nord-Norway FOR THE CUSTOMERS after arrival from Hinnoy and the new Mycklebust-Yard-ferries -
compared with the 2012-built Remontova-ferries (Lödingen, Baroy, Vaeroy, Landegode etc.) ?
Faster Speed ? NO
Bigger Capacity ? NO
Shorter travel-time ? NO
More dep. per day ? NO
More space and comfort onboard ? Not really
Cheaper ticket-prices ? NO
Are the small capacities of only 120 cars per ship really enough for today and the next 10, 15, 20 years also ???
Just for info: Nerthus has the same size as Hinnöy - but takes 188 cars instead of 120 only.
That is the difference between Denmark and Norway (and a number of other countries).
In Norway new ferries are more green than older ferries - and that was it mostly.
But in Denmark new ferries means a complete better transport-system for the customers, a higher standard, higher level of transport, really better, faster, more space, more dep. - advantages for all customer-groups than it was before.
And that the new ferries are green also is a contemporary side-effect, a nice point for press-release, media-info - green-looking, green-washing.
So today the route Lödingen-Bognes is (still) much bigger than Alslinjen - but from next year Alslinjen will come very close nearby, then it is much more attractive to choose this way f.ex. from Flensburg to Copenhagen with a nice 30min break onboard than to drive all the way on the motorway. Mols-group has had on all their routes an extreme growing of Pax-figures with new ferries.
So - at least on these Norwegian routes here - the political guidelines for the tender were short-sighted and poor - in fact only green.
They only had the green glasses on and forgot all the other points which are much more important for the customers and the complete region.
A short look to Moskenes-Bodö what would be easy possible:
Today 8 dep. (some days only 7) / day with 4 slowly ferries in operation = max. 8 x 120 cars = 1060 cars / day and direction -
But this here would be possible with a little bit bigger and faster ferries:
Option A) 8 dep. / day with 2 ferries (8 x 190 cars, 21 knots) = 1520 cars / day and direction
Dep. mirror-symmetric 1:00 - 4:00 - 7:00 - 10:00 - 13:00 - 16:00 - 19:00 - 22:00
Or Option B) 9 dep. / day with 2 ferries (9 x 190 cars, 23,5 knots) = 1710 cars / day and direction
Dep. mirror-symmetric 1:00 - 3:40 - 6:20 - 9:00 - 11:40 - 14:20 - 17:00 - 19:40 - 22:20
With both options A) or B) 1 dep./day could be deleted for maintenance etc. also - and nevertheless it would be much higher capacities daily than today.
So summary: More speed = much shorter travel-times, more capacities and space for all customer-groups and much less operation-costs (less crews and staff, less ships, less maintenance) would be easy possible.
4 ships in operation today compared with 2 only theoretic possible !
And 21 or 23,5 knots are not high-speed - but in this century absolute normal usually speeds for normal ferries.
Especially for so "very far out" Islands and regions shorter travel-times and more departures per day are giving a real uplift for these regions.
As I said, a crude analysis, you evidently do not comprehend the geography and local economy in the area, the preferred travel routes, etc. These areas will never experience the growth you forecast through faster and more frequent services.I have NOT recommended High-Speed-Ferries for the ferry-routes Bodö-Lofoten and Bognes-Lödingen. Could be a problem with high waves in winter-storms also.
But significant faster ferries than the slowly actually ferries with ca. 13-16 knots only.
So - if now a complete new-ferry-generation is arriving - it would be normal also to upgrade the speed for to get shorter travel-times.
Not 30, 35 or 40 knots - but 20, 21, 22, 23, 24 or 25 knots makes a lot of sense and would be a significant better situation for all people in the region and all customer-groups in future than today.
Especially if 2 little bigger and little bit faster ferries can offer more departures and capacities per day than 3 smaller and slower ferries as today - what means 3 x the crew paid for longer working-times, 3 x ship-maintenance and other costs.
And sure you can compare some Norwegian routes with some Danish routes also.
Let´s look to Alslinjen f.ex. - up to today a very basic service with slowly smaller ferries from last century (Frigg Sydfyn / Fynshav),
Service-speed 12 knots, travel-time 45min, 50 cars / 90 cars, 2 hours-frequency, ticket-price for car incl. pax is mostly 139 DKK.
And with the new ferry Nerthus it will be 2026
Service-speed 16-17,5 knots, travel-time circa 30min (maybe 35min), 188 cars, minimum 90min frequency, ticket-price will go down to 99 DKK (maybe also 79 DKK in winter, operation-costs goes massive down).
And furthermore this new ferry offers also MUCH more space onboard, much bigger restaurant-cafe etc. - so also higher comfort onboard for the passengers.
So with a new ferry in Denmark EVERYTHING will be really better for the customers on this ferry-route !
And the same it was before also on Bornholmslinjen, Molslinjen, Samsölinjen etc. after arrival from new ferries and / or operation-change to Molslinjen-group.
But what will be really better in Nord-Norway FOR THE CUSTOMERS after arrival from Hinnoy and the new Mycklebust-Yard-ferries -
compared with the 2012-built Remontova-ferries (Lödingen, Baroy, Vaeroy, Landegode etc.) ?
Faster Speed ? NO
Bigger Capacity ? NO
Shorter travel-time ? NO
More dep. per day ? NO
More space and comfort onboard ? Not really
Cheaper ticket-prices ? NO
Are the small capacities of only 120 cars per ship really enough for today and the next 10, 15, 20 years also ???
Just for info: Nerthus has the same size as Hinnöy - but takes 188 cars instead of 120 only.
That is the difference between Denmark and Norway (and a number of other countries).
In Norway new ferries are more green than older ferries - and that was it mostly.
But in Denmark new ferries means a complete better transport-system for the customers, a higher standard, higher level of transport, really better, faster, more space, more dep. - advantages for all customer-groups than it was before.
And that the new ferries are green also is a contemporary side-effect, a nice point for press-release, media-info - green-looking, green-washing.
So today the route Lödingen-Bognes is (still) much bigger than Alslinjen - but from next year Alslinjen will come very close nearby, then it is much more attractive to choose this way f.ex. from Flensburg to Copenhagen with a nice 30min break onboard than to drive all the way on the motorway. Mols-group has had on all their routes an extreme growing of Pax-figures with new ferries.
So - at least on these Norwegian routes here - the political guidelines for the tender were short-sighted and poor - in fact only green.
They only had the green glasses on and forgot all the other points which are much more important for the customers and the complete region.
A short look to Moskenes-Bodö what would be easy possible:
Today 8 dep. (some days only 7) / day with 4 slowly ferries in operation = max. 8 x 120 cars = 1060 cars / day and direction -
But this here would be possible with a little bit bigger and faster ferries:
Option A) 8 dep. / day with 2 ferries (8 x 190 cars, 21 knots) = 1520 cars / day and direction
Dep. mirror-symmetric 1:00 - 4:00 - 7:00 - 10:00 - 13:00 - 16:00 - 19:00 - 22:00
Or Option B) 9 dep. / day with 2 ferries (9 x 190 cars, 23,5 knots) = 1710 cars / day and direction
Dep. mirror-symmetric 1:00 - 3:40 - 6:20 - 9:00 - 11:40 - 14:20 - 17:00 - 19:40 - 22:20
With both options A) or B) 1 dep./day could be deleted for maintenance etc. also - and nevertheless it would be much higher capacities daily than today.
So summary: More speed = much shorter travel-times, more capacities and space for all customer-groups and much less operation-costs (less crews and staff, less ships, less maintenance) would be easy possible.
4 ships in operation today compared with 2 only theoretic possible !
And 21 or 23,5 knots are not high-speed - but in this century absolute normal usually speeds for normal ferries.
Especially for so "very far out" Islands and regions shorter travel-times and more departures per day are giving a real uplift for these regions.
My AIS says daily ca.Hovedfergen "Landegode" som trafikkerer sambandet alene vinterstid og sammen med to suppleringsferger sommerstid har en rutefart på 17 knop. Ikke 13-16 knop som du antyder.
So you think 21 knots or 23, 24 knots is a problem for a Monohull-ferrry with closed decks in winter ?En rekke dager må man avvike kurs for å sette "stormkurser"
Just this is the problem. The politicians there are not interested to give the complete Lofoten/Vesterralen - region an uplift, an upgrade in live-quality and travel-/transport-infrastructure.har lavere rutefart men er i henhold til kontraktskravene
Why not ?These areas will never experience the growth you forecast through faster and more frequent services.
188 biler på "Nerthus"er ikke så veldig imponerende nei, og turnaround er rundt 30 minutt (visuelt fra Marinetraffic, til og fra kai, ikke passering havnegrense, som MT oppgir). Dobbeldekkeren "Boknafjord", som går på LNG tar 242 biler og er bare 12m lengre. Og den laster ganske effektivt. Typisk rundt 5-8 minutt ved kai. Hinnøy bruker rundt 15 minutt, og det er vel på grunn av lading. Den kunne altså like godt vært en dobbeldekker med nesten dobbel kapasitet. En svakhet med Hinnøy og hydrogenfergene er at de bare har én thruster i hver ende, Det gjør at de neppe kommer seg til kai uten hjelp i dårlig vær, med en thruster ute. Nerhthus og Boknafjord-fergene har 4 thrustere.The 'Nerthus', which you find so worthy of praise, has two mezzanine decks which is a guarantee for slow and cumbersome loading and offloading operations, and also higher maintenance costs. That is why she carries 188 cars compared to the much more efficient 'Hinnøy' which can do 5-minute turnarounds at port. As a mariner for almost 30 years I have to say the deck layout on the 'Nerthus' is not impressive at all.
Jeg vet ikke helt hva du vil fram til med disse tallene dine?My AIS says daily ca.
TRANOY 13,5 knots
HINNOY 14 knots
BAROY 14,5 knots
BODOE 14,5 knots
VAEROY 16,5 knots
LANDEGODE 16,5 knots
So why shall facts turned around ? The ferries are slowly, travel-times are long - and it will not be faster / shorter in the future.
Det er vel heller slik at rutetabellen er tilpasset den farten fergene kan holde, med litt margin. Det varierer jo fra 3:15 til 4:00 ut fra hvilken ferge som går. Og Værøy holder samme fart som Landegode, selv om den har mer å gå på for å klare rundturene i døgnet, så det er ikke snakk om økonomifart..Jeg vet ikke helt hva du vil fram til med disse tallene dine?
Fartøyene holder en fart tilpasset rutetabellen uten forsinkelser. "Værøy" eller "Landegode" kjører ikke med 20 knop for "artighet skyld" så lenge de holder den rutetabellen de er satt opp på. Ligger de etter skjema drar de på litt mer.
Det er noe som heter drivstofføkonomi.
Fart er iht. kontraktskravene som foreligger for anbudet, satt av Statens Vegvesen.Det er vel heller slik at rutetabellen er tilpasset den farten fergene kan holde, med litt margin. Det varierer jo fra 3:15 til 4:00 ut fra hvilken ferge som går. Og Værøy holder samme fart som Landegode, selv om den har mer å gå på for å klare rundturene i døgnet, så det er ikke snakk om økonomifart..
Ja, opplagt ihht kontrakt, men i den ser det ut til at overfartstidene er tilpasset det matriellet Torghatten har tilgjengelig.De nye fartøyene er spesifisert til 16-17knops servicefart, noe som gir rom for å ha lik overfartstid på alle fartøyene som skal benyttes etter levering av nytt materiell.
Hvordan skal de ombygges? Kan de ikke gå på biogass?Slik det ser ut nå mht. levering av nybyggene vil man operere denne ruta med de to nye fartøyene samt ombygde "Landegode" og "Værøy" fra sommeren 2027.
¤ Suppleringsfartøyene skal ha null- eller lavutslippsløsning som biodiesel, biogass, strøm, hydrogen eller en kombinasjon av disse.
Ja, opplagt ihht kontrakt, men i den ser det ut til at overfartstidene er tilpasset det matriellet Torghatten har tilgjengelig.
Hvordan skal de ombygges?
Ja, det er mange hensyn å ta, men jeg synes sesongfergene kunne vært noe raskere. Fanafjord f.eks. lå lenge til salgs, den kunne erstattet Tranøy.Kapasiteten skal favne om lav- og høysesong og være et kompromiss i så måte.
Jeg tror ikke Fanafjord ville vært ideell i det farvannet i det hele tatt.Ja, det er mange hensyn å ta, men jeg synes sesongfergene kunne vært noe raskere. Fanafjord f.eks. lå lenge til salgs, den kunne erstattet Tranøy.
Jeg tror ikke Fanafjord ville vært ideell i det farvannet i det hele tatt.
Josa - please forget Nerthus, there we can first really watch next year if she has her right route Alslinjen, new timetable etc. - think Boknafjord - much better, has a bigger capacity but is not much bigger from the dimensions, and think it with closed bows/decks for highest waves.188 biler på "Nerthus"er ikke så veldig imponerende nei, og turnaround er rundt 30 minutt (visuelt fra Marinetraffic, til og fra kai, ikke passering havnegrense, som MT oppgir). Dobbeldekkeren "Boknafjord", som går på LNG tar 242 biler og er bare 12m lengre. Og den laster ganske effektivt. Typisk rundt 5-8 minutt ved kai. Hinnøy bruker rundt 15 minutt, og det er vel på grunn av lading. Den kunne altså like godt vært en dobbeldekker med nesten dobbel kapasitet. En svakhet med Hinnøy og hydrogenfergene er at de bare har én thruster i hver ende, Det gjør at de neppe kommer seg til kai uten hjelp i dårlig vær, med en thruster ute. Nerhthus og Boknafjord-fergene har 4 thrustere.
Ja, rundt 20 knop er realistisk ihvertfall for el ferger på kortere strekninger. Så får vi se hvordan det går med "China Zorilla",Josa - please forget Nerthus, there we can first really watch next year if she has her right route Alslinjen, new timetable etc. - think Boknafjord - much better, has a bigger capacity but is not much bigger from the dimensions, and think it with closed bows/decks for highest waves.
Now think such a "Type New Boknafjord-ferry" with 100% battery-electric - and so much power that a service-speed of 22, 23, 24 knots is possible.